Thursday, December 17, 2015

// // 12 comments

Super-Super Secessionism

by Reb Akiva @ Mystical Paths

Wikipedia - Supersessionism, also called replacement theology or fulfillment theology, is a Christian theological view on the current status of the Catholic church in relation to the Jewish people and Judaism.[1] It holds that the Christian Church has replaced the Israelites as God's[2] chosen people[1][3] and that the New Covenant has replaced or superseded the Mosaic covenant.[4] From a supersessionist's "point of view, just by continuing to exist, the Jews dissent".[5]

Supersessionism formed a core tenet of the Church for the majority of its existence, and remains a common assumption among Christians. 

This view was invalided by Vaticin II in 1965 as the formal Catholic church theology, though recent church theology councils continue to struggle with how the Jewish path and Torah can be religiously valid in their world.  Their problem, not ours.

Mystical Paths has recently been getting a series of anonymous comments on old posts by Reb Gutman about Muslim positions on Jews and Jerusalem, as taken from the Quran (comments I am not approving.)  What came up as particularly interesting to me was the clear position of Super Super Sessionism – that Islam replaced Christianity which replaced Judaism, and therefore all Jewish biblical (Torah) figures and prophets are actually Muslim prophets, and all Christian new testament figures are actually Muslim prophets.  Here it is in the Anonymous commentors own words…

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This site promotes hate to Islam and Muslims. You don't say anything right about my religion (Islam).

And I'm learning about Judaism, it seems you obsessively took your ethnicity as a religion. It seems your purpose in life is the preservation of your ethnicity, which is a so vain and false and man-made purpose.

The Qur'an speaks about peace, self-defense, religious freedom... You accuse Islam of violent, etc. But you don't mention that it is in the context of self-defense. And you just repeat what Christians/Media/Atheists say, as if Christians and Jews never read the Torah before, which is full of cruelty, war, violence, honor killing, etc. And you speak as if Islam/The Qur'an was the one with all that stuff. (I speak about Scriptures, not current affairs).

And then you ask that guy to read the Qur'an according to a racist mind. While the Qur'an says that all prophets were Muslims (Muslim is an Arabic word, the translation to English is “one who submits to the will of G-d”.) According to this definition, all Prophets were Muslims. And sects/divisions are forbidden in Islam.

Can you imagine if Moses, as a Muslim, was to tell non-jewish Muslims “don't pray next to me, don't be my neighbor, what's your ancestry... ?

I have read in this site how you ask people about their mother's ancestry, you stop people from places because you think they don't belong there, you invent about the purpose of non-jews in this life, as if it was other than yours.

Palestineans were expelled from their homes and you wonder: why are they angry? Why do they fight back?..., you allowed users' comments insulting Christians and Muslims (ex. a Jew called pedophile to all Christians and you didn't delete that comment), etc.
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Dear Anonymous commentor:

“The Qur'an speaks about peace, self-defense, religious freedom... You accuse Islam of violent, etc. But you don't mention that it is in the context of self-defense.”

I’m not going to debate your interpretation of the Quran with you.  And I have met some peaceful nice free muslims.  BUT, the vast majority of terrorism in the world is perpetuated by people who declare themselves muslim and their actions jihad.  Thousands of innocents mass murdered every year in the name of your religion, book and god.  And it’s worth noting that the majority of those killed are other muslims by those murdering muslims!

The best I can understand your concept of self-defense is these muslims saying “the world might affect us…so we must kill it!”

As far as religious freedom, surely you jest.  Muslim majority nations are ranked as the most religiously oppresive in the world!  Out of the top 20 most religiously oppressive countries, Muslim countries are 17 of the 20. 

“sects/divisions are forbidden in Islam”

Please explain Shia versus Sunni, and why these two groups frequently kill each other.

“you ask people about their mother's ancestry, you stop people from places because you think they don't belong there”

And you ask people about their father’s faith, and consider people muslim or not by that.  What’s your point?  Each religion and group has it’s standards for entry.  Judaism’s is that the mother is Jewish or a person converts.

“Palestineans were expelled from their homes and you wonder: why are they angry? Why do they fight back?...”

Or they weren’t expelled, but you and they have been fed lies.  And they weren’t absorbed as refugees, AS EVERY OTHER REFUGEES WERE, including Jewish ones expelled from Arab / muslim countries, to keep them angry and a threat.

Regardless, you expect us to sit and die and not fight those who try to kill us?  Guess again.  You should be amazed we are able to do that without mass murder and mass slaughter of innocents… like what is happening in Syria (muslim country), Iraq (muslim country), etc.

Innocent Syrians (muslims) are being slaughtered in the HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS, and those who can are fleeing for their lives – in the MILLIONS.  How many Palestinians are fleeing from Israel, the Palestinian territories or Gaza?  None?  Strange that.  Says something doesn’t it?

12 comments:

Jesterhead45 said...

The islamic equivalent of replacement theology is known as Tahrif that accuses Jews and Christians of distorting their own texts (with the former cursed for angering G-d by rejecting his message aka islam and the latter cursed for being led astray) as well as believing that original Jews and Christians were essentially proto-muslims called Hanifs.

One could also call it Retroactive Super Secessionism since muslims also believe that Adam was the first muslim before the concept of religion even existed, other nonsense includes Haman existing in the time of the Exodus instead of during the Persian Achaemenid Empire and being the vizier of Pharaoh.

David said...

Lolol. I did not know about you talk in the first paragraph Jester. R. Yosef Mizrahi has some videos on the subject too.

People should dig into these anachronism to realize what we're dealing with. It reminds me of Scientology.

Jesterhead45 said...

David

Not sure I follow you, merely highlighting the flawed basis on which islam retroactively claims to have replaced Judaism.

Aside from individuals such as the Rambam in Iggeret Taiman and Ibn Kammuna, there is a need for more Islam-critical Jewish counter-missionary groups that delve into lslamic texts in the same way organizations like Jews for Judaism have delved into xian texts.

S. Madewell said...

As a Noahide, I'm telling you that you can't reason with Xtians or Muslims. I wasted thirty-five years of my life trying to educated Xtians about the origins of their belief-system. They refuse to place their own writings back into the proper historical, linguistic, and cultural context. Same goes for the majority of Muslim sectarians. Let them live in their lies, Rabbi Akiva. You can't fix stupid.

Unknown said...

http://www.timesofisrael.com/catholic-theologians-say-jews-can-be-saved-without-converting

The Vatican recently issued canon NOT TO CONVERT JEWS and that Jews don't need Yeshu (thanks?!) to go to heaven and that God's promises to the Jews cannot be changed.

David said...

To the last Unknown,

The Vatican still ask their dummies to convert jews unlike what you or that journalist might think:

http://www.torahmusings.com/2015/12/what-the-vatican-didnt-say-and-what-it-did/

Anonymous said...

In the case of Islam, it is not a replacement. You replaced Islam (submission to G-d) with your desires. Much of what is written in the Bible, is in the Qur'an.
The Qur'an confirms previous Scriptures and is a criterion over the Torah and Gospel. If they differ from the Qur'an, then the Qur'an is right because it was preserved. On the other hand, the Bible contains scientific errors, contradictions, etc.
5:48 And We have revealed to you, (O Muhammad), the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture and as a criterion over it. So judge between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations away from what has come to you of the truth...

Islam is not a new religion and Muhammad doesn't differ from other Prophets:

21:25 And We sent not before you any messenger except that We revealed to him that there is no deity except Me, so worship Me.
2:163 And your god is one God. There is no deity except Him,...
41:43 Nothing is said to you, [O Muhammad], except what was already said to the messengers before you. Indeed, your Lord is a possessor of forgiveness and a possessor of painful penalty.
46:9 Say, “I am not something original among the messengers, nor do I know what will be done with me or with you. I only follow that which is revealed to me, and I am not but a clear warner.”
35:43 But you will never find in the way of Allah any change, and you will never find in the way of Allah any alteration.
2:136 Say, [O believers], "We have believed in Allah and what has been revealed to us and what has been revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Descendants and what was given to Moses and Jesus and what was given to the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are Muslims [in submission] to Him."
3:85 And whoever desires other than Islam as religion – never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers.
2:135 They say, "Be Jews or Christians [so] you will be guided." Say, "Rather, [we follow] the religion of Abraham, inclining toward truth, and he was not of the polytheists."
3:19 Indeed, the religion in the sight of Allah is Islam. And those who were given the Scripture did not differ except after knowledge had come to them - out of jealous animosity between themselves. And whoever disbelieves in the verses of Allah , then indeed, Allah is swift in [taking] account.
3:84 Say, "We have believed in Allah and in what was revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Descendants, and in what was given to Moses and Jesus and to the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are Muslims [submitting] to Him."
10:37 And it was not [possible] for this Qur'an to be produced by other than Allah , but [it is] a confirmation of what was before it and a detailed explanation of the [former] Scripture, about which there is no doubt, from the Lord of the worlds.
9:111 … [It is] a true promise [binding] upon Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur'an. And who is truer to his covenant than Allah? ...

The rest of your post is about people's affairs, I only talk about Scriptures.

S. Madewell said...

Dear Rabbi Akiva,

Some of this Islamic Supersessionism you're getting hit with recently is probably being fed, at least in part, by certain YouTube vids that depict various Jewish rabbis(?) trying to schmooze Muslims on Turkish TV.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwjn_3Q9qdU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xniv82QRdDg

Jesterhead45 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Jesterhead45 said...

To the Retroactive Supersessionist above.

Jews have replaced nothing, it is you and your system's founder who makes baseless claims and appropriated from the Torah into a book loosely derived from Xian texts that can be better understood in Syriac/Aramaic then Arabic, the koran confirms nothing.

Moses was a man known for his humility which is more then can be said for the founder of Islam, whose limited understanding of G-d is little more an alter ego (e.g. Clark Kent to Superman) and outlet to justify his well-documented litany of base desires and crimes (who considered the perfect man in islam is emulated by the likes isis, hamas, hezboshaitan and other terror groups today), be it marrying a 6-year old, his adopted son's wife or preferring a Coptic slave girl over his other wives leading Aisha and Hafsa along with their fathers aka future Caliphs Umar and Abu Bakr to poison him.

Anonymous said...

My answer to Jesterhead45:
Contradictions and scientific errors in the Torah weren't from G-d, but from men.
How come in the books of Moses we read “the Lord said to Moses” or about Moses's burial, who wrote it then? The author is unknown, and why in Jeremiah 8:8 “How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the Lord is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie”
Only the Qur'an is entirely reliable.
You said the Qur'an confirms nothing, well, it doesn't confirm the “honor killing” in the Torah, and other things which my post probably would be deleted if I mention...

The Qur'an refutes what you said about Syriac/Aramaic languages:

19:97 So, [O Muhammad], We have only made Qur'an easy in the Arabic language that you may give good tidings thereby to the righteous and warn thereby a hostile people.
20:113 And thus We have sent it down as an Arabic Qur'an and have diversified therein the warnings that perhaps they will avoid [sin] or it would cause them remembrance.
39:28 [It is] an Arabic Qur'an, without any deviance that they might become righteous.
Etc.

The Qur'an refutes your claim about Muhammad (pbuh):

68:2 You are not, [O Muhammad], by the favor of your Lord, a madman.
68:4 And indeed, you are of a great moral character. 68:5 So you will see and they will see 68:6 Which of you is the afflicted [by a devil]. 68:7 Indeed, your Lord is most knowing of who has gone astray from His way, and He is most knowing of the [rightly] guided.

Peace, self-defense, religious freedom in the Qur'an:

2:190 “fight those who fight you but do not transgress”
(self-defense)
2:193 Fight them until there is no (more) betrayal/misguidance and (until) worship is (acknowledged to be) for Allah. But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors
2:256 There shall be no compulsion in the religion...
9:95 ...So leave them alone; indeed they are evil; and their refuge is Hell as recompense for what they had been earning.
51:53 ... they (themselves) are a transgressing people 54 So leave them, (O Muhammad), for you are not to be blamed.
109:6 For you is your religion, and for me is my religion
2:192 And if they cease, then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
42:15 ... For us are our deeds, and for you your deeds. There is no [need for] argument between us and you. Allah will bring us together, and to Him is the [final] destination."
28:55 And when they hear ill speech, they turn away from it and say, “For us are our deeds, and for you are your deeds. Peace will be upon you; we seek not the ignorant.”
39:15 So worship what you will besides Him." Say, "Indeed, the losers are the ones who will lose themselves and their families on the Day of Resurrection. Unquestionably, that is the manifest loss."
5:32 ...whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely...
2:191 And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- îaram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.
(self-defense)
9:13 Would you not fight a people who broke their oaths and determined to expel the Messenger, and they had begun [the attack upon] you the first time? …
(self-defense)
25:63 And the servants of the Most Merciful are those who walk upon the earth easily, and when the ignorant address them [harshly], they say peace,
42:39 And those who, when tyranny strikes them, they defend themselves,
42:40 And the retribution for an evil act is an evil one like it, but whoever pardons and makes reconciliation - his reward is [due] from Allah . Indeed, He does not like wrongdoers.

Unknown said...

http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2015/12/22/what-the-vatican-said-and-why-we-should-care/

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