Monday, January 02, 2012

// // 9 comments

Today’s Protests in Beit Shemesh

by Reb Akiva @ Mystical Paths

I just went past todays’ protests in Beit Shemesh.  Here’s how it went…

About 30 zealot-thugs dressed in black coats and black hats at night, in the shade of a tree (shaded from street lights) with a light drizzle holding a sign with letters written in outline…

Could barely see them in the dark.

Couldn’t read the sign in the dark.

They were chanting as I passed.  I heard something that sounded like this…

Oy, they’re out to get us.

Oy, we’re holy and you’re not.

Oy, come closer so we can intimidate you.

I’m sure it will be world headline news tomorrow.  Look for it, but remember you heard it here first.

9 comments:

chaim said...

Reb Akiva, this is terrible what you are posting here. you are war-mongering. shame on you. we are almost at the end--why would you want to get stuck on the other side of the fence? and especially being judged on the impact you make online by pushing many many others off into the tehom???

take a few steps back, get off the self-righteous horse and stop dragging people into hell with you. there's still time to stand up and brush yourself off from this very very not simple situation. if it's just you, what can I say? but when you post things for the world like this, hashem yerachem on you and on all am yisrael. hope you post this comment at least to keep a little free choice open for people on this site.

Anonymous said...

Chaim,
You are a fool. Kol haK'vod to Reb Akiva for calling them what they are. If you were to spit or harrass my daughter I would beat you senseless. They are erev rav and deserve no compassion. They should be placed in cherem until such a time as they are willing to do t'shuvah for their egregious sins.

- Natan from Texas

chaim said...

anonymous and anyone else: yes i am a fool. but i'd be very careful of judging this case whether from beit shemesh or all the more so from texas.

by far the best thing is to follow the life-giving advice of our sages: "Let the Messiah come, and may I merit to sit in the shadow of his donkey's dung" (Sanhedrin 98b)

if you really understood what this meant, you would super-glue your mouth shut, turn off your brain for a few seconds and suspend judgment--and for sure NOT post such things on a public blog.

people make choices every moment which determine infinitely more than they realize. "a man is their own judge." it ain't what you think and c h a v a l .... choose life and simply sit quietly with a muzzle on your mouth (and keyboard!!!!).

josh said...

When the hilltop youth are accused of bad things, settlers and religious people do not say they are 'dressed like settlers' and try to disassociate from them. It is sad that the Haredim, and unfortunately the generalization is straight on, don't deal with their children and community and instead say 'they are not us'.

When Yigal Amir did what he did (whether he pulled the fatal trigger or not) sure, there were some who said he wasn't religious, but frankly, he is and merely fell in his case.

Back to Beit Shemesh, the Edah, the sikrikim and haredim and secular media; I've been defending Haredim all week and vilifying the pathetic auto-anti-semitic hateful media, but I have also been listening and reading Haredi media and they really suck! and they are missing an opportunity. There are many internal voices of Haredim being under the oppression of these extremists but there is virtually no introspection, there is no kiruv, but rather, it is all about 'they are not one of us', 'they' are not really Haredi. Sure the media and the New Israel Fund has an agenda, but internally the Haredim are avoiding handling the issue and merely wishing to sweep this under the rug. With regard to gedolim, on one hand, it really is beneath them to react to the secular media, but on the other hand, they certainly know that something is going and it is a real crisis. It was sad that the only major psak came out last week from Rav Elyashiv about forbidding to go to the army and into academics. Yesterday, it was reported that a 10yr old Haredi girl was assaulted and harrassed on a public bus in Jerusalem, so much that she decided to get off at the next stop where the young man literally kicked her off. Kikar shabbat is full of instances of assaults on Haredim, where is the outcry from the gedolim? Where is the cheshbon nefesh?

chaim said...

halavai there would be someone to talk to.... but it is more like, "don't confuse us with the facts.." so it is not beneath the gedolei yisrael, it is just that we all know how they would be quoted and which images of them would be used...

truth is, regarding those who use language such as "beat you senseless, parasites, plague on society, vermin," etc etc along with phrases not proper to repeat anywhere, as long as their world view doesn't include the blackest point of their brethren's ghetto, their calls for unity and acceptance are hypocritical and hollow at best.

there most certainly is cheshbon hanefesh--just because it doesn't seem to go according to what we think it should doesn't mean we can disparage anything from the true gedolei yisrael. the issue is too big to "handle" at this point since the hate is spewing out of control (thus the terms used above). in this climate it would be suicide to endorse the army and academia for the average haredi. adaraba, stay far away until hashem brings a better option. the world will get its tikkun, just not in the way we are arrogantly insisting. if you let go of emunat chachamim (and who even knows what that is these days?!!) you are sunk. come on, it's not like this wasn't written about centuries earlier (and even recently) by our sages. OUR sages.

that is the issue--emunat chachamim. not flattening out the issue to blame or justify both sides at once. you'll fall if you try chas v'shalom.

Akiva said...

Chaim,

"adaraba, stay far away until hashem brings a better option." - Hashem? HASHEM???? Where's our histadlus???

"just because it doesn't seem to go according to what we think it should doesn't mean we can disparage anything from the true gedolei yisrael." - As Rav Kanviesky said, if you don't hear it from him personally DON'T BELIEVE IT! Much of what we "hear" from the true gedolei yisroel, via pashkevilim or via askanim quoting them, appears to be manipulated, self serving, or outright fabrications. (We've document that a few times here, others have extensively.)

So who can say what the true gedolim are ACTUALLY saying, or (in the case of the more insular gedolim) actually being made aware of? (See for example the video of Rav Shteinmen being approached on the issue of Shwecky concerts.)

I dearly wish our gedolim would actually walk down the street, analyze the issue (listen to witnesses) and then loudly and clearly announce a psak! (One we could believe by hearing it direct and seeing that they were accurately informed about the situation.)

Paskevilim and askanim announcements are now no better than a Twitter tweet, and less than a blog post!

When I have seen, met, and heard gedolim I have always been impressed. However, regarding the statements being made "in their name", we're collectively being made fools of.

chaim said...

our hishtadlut? well, it always is a balance and depends on the times, but in these times, until it changes again, i wouldn't aspire much higher than the one who said, "may I merit to sit in the shadow of [mashiach's] donkey's dung." that is also a type of hishtadlut.

no argument about people perverting the words of the gedolim for their own ends--it brings terrible churban. extremism is bad. but that isn't the issue here. (and neither are the "thugs")

if the gedolei hador choose to sit in that shadow instead of issuing a [clear?] psak that many will ridicule and denigrate anyway, who can argue? after all, "wisdom will be putrid, the pious will be despised." They know very well what situation we are all in. you're comparing humans (them) to monkeys (us) if you insist they analyze things in the way you think they should. I am not saying anything new here...

you are mixing a lot of emotional issues together. bottom line is that out there in the world, this has ignited a major hate and venom campaign against a large group of Jews who are for the most part, more G-d fearing and righteous than you or I. and you, my friend, actually want to be in the group that is fanning the raging flames? and even more, bring down many naive uninformed others with you??

I am only writing because the power of the internet is atomic and know in heaven exactly the number of people you affect with each word you write.

Akiva said...

"i wouldn't aspire much higher than the one who said, "may I merit to sit in the shadow of [mashiach's] donkey's dung." that is also a type of hishtadlut."

That's your choice. I aspire to "where there is no men, be a man".

"you're comparing humans (them) to monkeys (us) if you insist they analyze things in the way you think they should. I am not saying anything new here..."

My point was not on how they should make their psak, but that it be clear it is THEM making it (that we receive assurances or proof it's actually from the gedolim). Further, the Shulchan Aruch DOES describe how those making judgements must gather information. Given the well founded belief that some gedolim are insulated and receiving information only 2nd or 3rd hand, knowing that they are gathering information from good and impartial sources adds respect and authority to their psak.

"against a large group of Jews who are for the most part, more G-d fearing and righteous than you or I."

You may speak for and judge yourself, do not presume to do so for me. Being I have personally interacted with this group, trying to bring peace and stop their terrorizing of children, and listened to their justifications for evil actions, I DO NOT JUDGE THEM BY THEIR CLOTHING. Their actions and words directly spoken clearly speak louder.

Yes this article was snide. But these people are trying to use Torah to justify violent actions and represent their position as kodesh. I won't let them get away with it.

chaim said...

ok, i am done from my side. i don't think you understood my point at all, but thanks for posting my posts anyway. at least whoever reads here might have a bit more basis for choosing. it is a treacherous time we live in and it is really zero hour in terms of berurim for everyone. and you are right, it is certainly a choice. G-d help us all.

b'hatzlacha and yearning for mochin d'gadlut for am yisrael.

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