Thursday, January 20, 2011

// // 13 comments

I Converted to Judaism

mikveh

by Reb Gutman Locks @ Mystical Paths

Hello Reb Gutman,

I am writing regarding your post on Mystical Paths with the title, “I Would Convert.”  

You said to that man, "You were born a member of one of the 70 Nations, and you must find your spiritual path among them."

I was born a member of the 70 Nations, and I converted to Judaism.  Are you saying I should not have converted?

Thanks, (a reader)

Gutman responds:

     When someone comes to an Orthodox rabbi wanting to convert, the rabbi must send that person away. That person was born into a certain nation and should find his or her way with the Seven Mitzvahs of Noah, which form the spiritual path given to the 70 Nations. This is a complete and holy path. Those who follow it become holy people who enjoy shares both in this world and the in World to Come.

     If he returns to the rabbi and again asks to convert, the rabbi must send him away again. After all, he was born a member of one of those nations for a good reason. Besides, Jews are a people, not a religion. Why would anyone want to change his people?

     If that rejected person returns a third time, the rabbi is to again tell him to keep the Seven Commandments of Noah and be a holy person.

     If the person returns a fourth time, the rabbi is to question him to see if he wants to convert for the right reason. Is he converting to marry a Jewish girl he loves or to get a better job? If so, the rabbi is to reject him completely. There is no set number of times that a potential convert should be sent away, but he should be discouraged from converting.

     If after these rejections he still wants to convert, because he loves G-d and the Jewish people, then we assume that in his last lifetime he was a Jew, but he did not act as a Jew should act and was reincarnated as a non-Jew with a strong desire to return to his people. Or, it could be that one of his ancestors had special merit and therefore he has a strong desire to become a Jew. The rabbi then begins the long process that leads to his proper conversion.

     On the surface, there is no reason for a member of the 70 Nations to convert. If he will follow his spiritual path properly, he will not lack anything. In fact, Jewish writings teach that anyone can attain the level of ruach hakodesh which is a spiritual level just under prophecy…. a Jew or a non-Jew.

     According to the Tanna De Bei Eliyahu, all people can experience Divine inspiration. “The reward is commensurate with the effort—the greater the sacrifice, the greater the revelation. It all depends on one’s deeds.”

    You asked if you did the right thing by converting. If you pushed through the obstacles and came back again and again and your conversion was kosher k’halacha – according to Jewish law, then, welcome home.

13 comments:

Anonymous said...

"That person was born into a certain nation and should find his or her way with the Seven Mitzvahs of Noah, which form the spiritual path given to the 70 Nations. This is a complete and holy path. Those who follow it become holy people who enjoy shares both in this world and the in World to Come"


If Noahide concept is not a subjective rabbinic interpretation of tanach, can you please cite tanach sources where the God of Israel explicitly laid down what you claim for the 70 nations.

If Judaism does not proselytize how are the 70 nations suppose to know about what you claimed since they weren't "present" at Sainai -by Judaism understanding.

Anonymous said...

Tanach DOES say to learn the ways of "My people".

Djerbani said...

I cannot understand why one must assume that the potential candidate for conversion must have been a Jew in a previous life.
The whole reincarnation thing is far removed from actual Torah,IMHO,
I do realize that it is deeply embedded in the mindset of many.
However this does not make reincarnation a truth does it?

As I am quite sure that you are aware,this is straight from Hinduism.
With all the obsession against yoga (a good obsession btw) I cannot fathom why the falseness of the "previous life" business is pushed as part of our faith.
Judaism is what our forefathers do,and Torah is the unequivocal truth. Sometimes and in some areas there exist distance.
I do believe reincarnation is far removed from the truth.
Having said all this,please understand that I intend no insult whatsoever to anyone.

Anonymous said...

It is inconsistent with Hashem's character to judge any nation without first warning them. Otherwise why would Hashem go to great length to FORCE Jonah to go and warn Nineveh ?

My ancestors worshipped woods and stones in a remote corner of the world -that's all they know. How is Hashem going to judge them based on Seven Mitzvahs of Noah.

If Noahid path is Hashem's ordained path for the 70 nations He would have made it clear to the 70 nations. Who would He have sent but the Jews who don't actively go out to proselytize?

Dov Bar-Leib said...

To Djerbani:

The subject of gilgulim has a very long history in Judaism although until the Ba'al Shem Tov it was usually confined to those who studied Torah at the level of Sod. Rav Chaim Vital, the Arizal's #1 student wrote a classic work "Sha'ar HaGilgulim" which explained the Jewish view of reincarnation in all its glory. One does not have to be a pagan worshiping Hindu gods to believe in this. There has always been a "rational school" in Judaism which did not accept Kabbalah, but so many of our great Sages of the Ages (Chazal) accepted Kabbalah and the concept of gilgulim as a part of what G-d revealed at Sinai that it simply cannot be rejected. Yet, because so much of it including the Zohar were not compiled in written form until the last 800 years, Kabbalah has its detractors or has those who were not in the loop with a Rav who taught them Sod. Keep in mind that even the revealed parts of our Oral Torah were not written down until over one hundred years after the destruction of the 2nd Temple. How much more is the case for keeping the hidden Torah from being written down for another 1000 years after the Mishna was written down. It simply was not meant to be known by all that is until about the year 5501 (1740) by the Holy Zohar's own insistence. The Zohar said that the gates from both Upper and Lower Wisdom would open wide at the beginning of the 6th century of the 6th millennium, 5501 (1740-41), from the giving of Adam a neshama in Gan Eden. So along came the Besh"t, who set up the cornerstone of teaching Sod to the masses of Jewry, and the rest is history.

To the others above, the source for how The Temple in Yerushalayim is supposed to be a conduit to the 70 nations is in Shlomo's prayer of dedication of the First Temple in Sefer Melachim (Kings) 1.

Dov Bar-Leib said...

That is Kings I 8:41-43 for Shlomo's plea for the gentile's prayers to be heard.

Benamou said...

A non-Jew who converts to Judaism must realize that he may be making a huge mistake. Instead of being responsible for 7 mitzvot Bene Noah, the convert is now responsible for 613 mitzvot. So after 120 years, when the convert is judged in Shamayim, he might just have 100 times more averot than he would have had if he had not converted.

Crazy, Frustrated Smade said...

I really, REALLY wish that people would stop using the phrase "Seven Noachide Laws," especially when they do so juxtapose the "613 Mitzvot."

Has anyone read Aaron Lichtenstein's book, "The Seven Laws of Noah"...?

For starters, the "SEVEN LAWS" actually include at least 66 of the 613 Mitzvot.

Secondly, according to the figure arrived at by Yisrael Mair HaCohen Kagan, known popularly as Chofetz Chaim, in his Sefer HaMitzvoth HaKatzer (An Abbreviated Book of the Commandments), of the 613 Mitzvot only 271 (77 Positive & 194 Negative) remain in constant effect through both pre-Exilic and post-Exilic times.

BTW, that's roughly a 4 to 1 ratio.

Further, simply observing the 66 Mitzvot, that comprise the "Seven CATEGORIES of Noachide Laws," IS NOT going to bring a Non-Jew to complete wholeness!

How can observing a mere 66 Mitzvot undo all the damage that's been done to that part of the Gentile neshamah that relates to "spiritual revelation" and "spiritual orientation" -- nevermind accomplish the "repairing of the vessels"...?

Sure, the Righteous of the Nations might have a share in the World to Come, but ... WHO CARES!? Honestly, I wasn't concerned with Pie-In-The-Sky when I bought into the lies of X-tianity and Messianism. Now that I've been re-educated, do you really think that I'm motivated by or even care about obtaining a reward in Olam HaBa!?

What I truly care about is tikkun olam and tikkun nefesh and becoming the best possible son and father and husband and person that I can be in the HERE-AND-NOW! To that end....

Non-Jews need to employ the same tools that Jews use in order to tame the Yetzer HaRa! We both need to actualize and empower our Yetzer HaTov! Derech HaShem is the only path worth following in this life! In order to self-actualize and transcend, Jews and Gentiles must learn to become Baalei Mussar and Baalei Bitul!

To speak of seven commandments and tell a Non-Jew that nothing more is required.... That's not only patronizing ... it's falling short of the mark, IMO. It's like giving a Goy a flashlight that doesn't contain any batteries and then telling him/her to find their own way out of the darkness. And you wonder why you see Goyishkeit in your face 24/7!?

And I don't mean to further burden Klal Yisrael, because I fully realize and appreciate that the Jewish people already have a lot issues of their own that need attention. It would just be nice if one hand could wash the other, no?

Of course, it would certainly help matters if HaShem, in His loving grace, would grant His Own the same level of funding that He showers upon the wicked!

Having the means and wherewithal to actually establish His Kingship in our hearts and on this planet would certainly be a nice change!

Crazy Smade said...

I thought that the Baal Shem Tov said that a broken heart and tears would overcome any obstacles to our prayers....

I thought HaKodesh Baruch Hu wanted us happy and not depressed. If that be the case, then why to constant knee to the groin? This is suppose to make me happy? Yeah.... I guess my level of emunah just isn't what it should be. :(

Shiloh said...

Anon 1. The actual source of the 7 laws of noach where started by a group of orthodox Jews who where talmidim of the historical Jew who was murdered 2000 years ago by the Erev Rav and the pagan romans. You will mistakenly refer to him as J-sus, and you can find it loosely in the book of Acts, (which is a highly redacted book), it was the prototype of which the rabbi's ran with later. You have to go back to the 2nd century documents to get an accurate rendition of the writings.

Its a Jewish source, just not taught to anyone, who the actual author really is. Most things revolving around this time has been redacted for numerous reasons by all sides.

Dov Bar-Leib said...

Shiloh: I do not know how you can say that the source for the 7 Noachide Laws is so that Torah Judaism could compete with Yoshka'ism or is from Yoshka'ism's Orthodox followers. The Seven Laws, at least some of them, are in the Written Torah in the first 11 chapters of Bereshit when G-d was speaking to all Mankind not to Jews alone. Others like not stealing are implied. Rashi says that the crime which triggered the Great Flood was stealing less than a prutah from one's fellow man. For this G-d would destroy the World? He would not have done so if "Thou shalt not steal" had not already been made known to Man. Someone cannot be held accountable for doing something wrong unless he had been previously commanded not to do it. Some of the Noachide Laws are plainly stated. Such as "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of G-d He made Man." Some are more sublimely stated by pointing out how the act angered G-d: "And as for Sheth, to him also a son was born, and he named him Enosh. Then to call in the Name of HaShem became profaned." From this we get the prohibition of desecrating G-d's Name or blasphemy. I just don't believe that Yoshke's followers invented all this. By the way, Avraham does not show up until the very end of Chapter 11. So whom was G-d talking to before Avraham? He was talking to non-Jews.

Anonymous said...

Dov Bar-Leib, with all due respect you don't have to believe in anything at all. I just present facts that are not publically know by most Jews and almost 100% of the goyim. I can give you other examples of texts we use even today that his talmidim where heavily involved in writing. Yes, what we would call normative Judaism (Orthodoxy) You don't have to like it and can even refuse to accept it. It simply does not change the historical facts. But it does actually have much to do with where we are at in history today.

If you had the courage to learn that the actual historical Jew and his pro Torah Jewish followers where indistinguishable between any other what we would commonly call Orthodox Jews today. The only difference would be that his followers thought he was the Mashiach Ben Yosef. There are many Chabadnics who believe the Rebbe was the Mashiach, I can list many more groups that you are very familiar with who thought they had the Mashiach at the time. Most where Orthodox Jews. Some where obvious apostates. When the Mashiach is revealled, then we will all know for certain, yes?

There where apostates who corrupted his teachings and finally Gamliel II banned any information about him due to the beginning of the Great Lie, namely what you would refer to as 'yoshke' and xtianity. He has zero to do with it. You could say someone kinda got even for slitting the throats of certain pagan gods and then having them for dinner.

I personally find it against the Torah to slander an innocent Jew who had nothing to do with xtianity, it's heavily redacted books and the murder of so many Jews who refused to abandon the truth of who he was in order to accept the lies of the pagans. Including the lies of the goyim and messianics today. Don't worry, we know what's coming to them also.

We only have knee jerk reactions (totally understandable) to even the slightest mention of the historical Jew. We don't know how to distinguish between the two because of what history has given us by both sides.

Just remember, he, like most Jews will reincarnate. Frankly, I laugh at this truth how it make Jews and goyim squirm. Do you actually think he would follow xtianity or the Torah (not necessarily what we have made it into today though as that is another difficult pill that has been covered up). It's simple, a Torah observant Jew. The only thing you should maybe think of doing is not slander him, or atleast know there is two versions of the story (slander the roman counterfeit lie all you want). Like most in our world. By the way, I have confirmed what I am aware of with this Jew with a very well respected former Chief rabbi of whom I know you respect. Put it this way, there's much more to the story then that, but it does not matter much at this juncture in history. I just have the courage to speak Emet. Not a popular way for most.

There is no purpose reading the books of the Great Lie for any Jew as they are so heavily redacted and anti-Torah, it's a waste of time for all. Including goyim who if they actually wanted to follow him would be learning the Torah. The reasons for the 7 laws of Noach presented to them was to purify them enought to begin to learn Torah. The beginning, not the end. No, they don't have to convert either. Enough.

About your geulah writings. Are you aware that for the last several months the gov't has been removing the weapons from Jews in Judea and Samaria? They go and get 1 or 2 weapons a day not to wake up the sheeple. Like a frog in warm water, he does not jump out when you turn up the heat, finally getting boiled to death. We are headed for a very rough time, haShem has sent the answer before the problem exists. We could change our fate, but it's now finished as we are in way to deep now. Sad.

Another note, the attorney general of Israel has demanded and recieved via the courts all the regular users of Arutz 7's news site, their IP addresses. Nice stuff...

Hang on for the ride.

Shiloh said...

The above was written by me.

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