Monday, May 03, 2010

// // 19 comments

Does the Angel Tap Everyone On The Lip?

by Reb Gutman Locks at Mystical Paths

Question:

What happens to gentile babies? Are we taught the 7 Noahide Laws before we are born?

Answer:

The teaching of the angel tapping babies on the lip is allegorical. This means that, although the lesson is certainly true, we do not take the image literally. It is not a literal description of what happens to the baby in the womb.

The literal teaching is that all human beings have within them the deep-seated, instinctive knowledge of right and wrong. People do not have to be told not to murder in order to know that it is wrong to take another person’s life. However, when a child comes into the world, a selfish, animal nature also comes with him. This animal nature clouds over his ability to reason; it is demanding and self serving. A completely selfish person, might very well murder someone in order to get what he wants![i]

Every person in the world is made in the image of G-d, and we are all given free will. We can act like the One in Whose image we have been created, or we can act like the animal inclination that comes into the world with us.

So, the answer to your question is, “Yes.” The gentile knows from the womb that it is wrong to break the laws of decency, but after he is born, and his personal animal nature screams at him, he forgets. He has to be taught again: Do not worship an idol. Do not debase G-d’s name. Do not murder, steal, or commit adultery. Live justly, and do not eat a live animal.

When the gentile remembers his higher nature, and he fulfills these basic laws, he lives a holy life in this world, and he has a share in the Next World, too.

[i] Gensis 4:1

19 comments:

Shiloh said...

The only promise for those who follow the Noahide laws is that they won't be destroyed by a flood. Falls well short of the world to come. Interestingly this teaching for goyim was implimented by the original followers of the historical Jew from 2000 years ago in order that they attain a certain level of "holiness" in order that they may then proceed to be taught to follow the Torah of Moshe. It was intended as the beginning, not the end. The reason the 'rabbi's' teach it as they do is they don't want to be bothered with the goyim. Justifiable, maybe, a light of the Torah, absoulutly NOT. Only those who do their utmost to follow the Torah have a place in the world to come. So simple, why do we complicate it so. You wonder why we have so many troubles, no need to look to far now.

crazy smade said...

If, as Shiloh suggests, the Rabbis teach Noachidism so that they don't have to be bothered by the Goyim, then ... it hasn't worked! Noachides are constantly asking the Rabbis questions.

That said, I will agree that Noachidism is only a stepping stone for those who opt to take that path.

I'm not saying that all Repentant Strangers should become Righteous Strangers and undergo full conversion to Judaism.

What I'm saying is that we're all headed toward the same end. Call it what you will -- the Big Crunch, the Big Chill, the Reconstitution of Adam HaRishon, the World to Come, etc.

The bottom line is that we all contain within us a Divine Spark and the Multiverse is linked on levels that we can't even begin to imagine, let alone explain.

Taking a "dirt nap" is not the end. It never has been and it never will be. Nothing is lost, because we exist within and as part of the Infinite One.

That said, I do think that Noachidism has some serious shortcomings, which I've spoken about on my blog.

Anonymous said...

Mishneh Torah: Laws of kings and their wars: Chapter 8
Halacha 10
Moses only gave the Torah and mitzvot as an inheritance to Israel, as Deuteronomy 33:4 states: 'The Torah... is the inheritance of the congregation of Jacob,' and to all those who desire to convert from among the other nations, as Numbers 15:15 states 'the convert shall be the same as you.' However, someone who does not desire to accept Torah and mitzvot, should not be forced to.

By the same regard, Moses was commanded by the Almighty to compel all the inhabitants of the world to accept the commandments given to Noah's descendants.

If one does not accept these commands, he should be executed. A person who formally accepts these commands is called a resident alien. This applies in any place. This acceptance must be made in the presence of three Torah scholars.

Anyone who agrees to circumcise himself and allows twelve months to pass without circumcising himself is considered as one of the nations.

Halacha 11
Anyone who accepts upon himself the fulfillment of these seven mitzvot and is precise in their observance is considered one of 'the pious among the gentiles' and will merit a share in the world to come.

This applies only when he accepts them and fulfills them because the Holy One, blessed be He, commanded them in the Torah and informed us through Moses, our teacher, that Noah's descendants had been commanded to fulfill them previously.

However, if he fulfills them out of intellectual conviction, he is not a resident alien, nor of 'the pious among the gentiles,' nor of their wise men.

crazy smade said...

What's your point, Anon?

Shiloh said...

Anon, your halachot does NOT match the Torah of Moshe, only that of a rabbi whom decrees to kill any prophet that goes against the rabbi's. chillul haShem dude.

Anonymous said...

i am not sure if my precious comment is to be published. however i would like to state again, a s a long time noahide who has been studying with orthodox rabbis since 1966, when the net first came to my country, that shiloh is absolutely wrong. among other books, Compassion for humanity in the jewish tradition by Rabbi David Sears of breslov, would prove his fallacies.

i would like to quote Midrash: Tanna D'vei Eliyahu Rabba 9:1 from this book by Rabbi David Sears of breslov.

"The prophet Elijah declared: i call heaven and earth to bear witness that anyone- jew or gentile, man or woman, slave or handmaid- if his deeds are worthy, the Divine Spirit will rest upon him.

'And the glory of the Lord will be revealed, and all flesh will see it together (isaiah 40:5). the term all flesh includes non jews as well........which verse proves that 'I am G-d, the Lord of all flesh)jeremiah 33:7) cited in Yerushalmi Sanhedrin 7:1.

Righteous gentiles have a portion in the World to come (Tosephta , Sanhedrin 13:1; Maimonides, Mishneh Torah, Laws of Repentance 3:5; ibid, Laws of Testimoney 11:10)

How do we know that even a non jew who studies torah is comparable to the Kohen Gadol ? It is written, 'if a person does them, he shall live by them (Leviticus 18:5), the verse does not speak of priests, levites and israelites but 'a person'. From this we understand that even a non jew who studies torah is comparable to the Kohen Gadol (Talmud: Baba Kamma 38a)
Please do not quote the Torah wrongfully or Hashem wrongfully, as He has plans for ALL HIS CREATIONS. Israel is His chosen nation,no doubt on that, we were created for israel's sake, again no doubt about that. but He still has a plan for the 70 nations and creations.


i think what you wrote is just awful. blessings.

crazy smade said...

Anon, I don't agree with everything that Shiloh says. I'm just stating that Noachidism isn't enough for me, personally. Noachidism is only a stepping stone for those who opt to take that path. For those who benefit from that path, fine and dandy. More power to them.

Shiloh said...

Anon, you quote rabbinical writings. I can quote the xtian NT if you want, and we both know that it is heavily redacted and anti-Torah. If something in the rabbinical sources contradicts the Torah, then throw it out. In this case it does. Interesting I say to follow the Torah and you defend writings of men. Even the historical Jew you used to follow said to follow the Torah and not the hypocrits. We never get it now.

Anonymous said...

the holy sages, prophets and all are men but blessed and inspired by G-d to write, teach or lead. if you feel you know more than them, or are inspired more than them, far be it for me a gentile to argue. i dont put importance on man and his teaching even if it is the jews. i learn from them the holy scriptures and i know how scruplously careful they are when they teach as they are responsible to G-d for what they teach us. i dont know about others but my rabbis, like R Yitzchak Ginsburg of inner.org, R David Sears of breslov, RAvi Shafran of agudathisrael not to forget RTuvia Bolton of yeshiva@ohrtmimim.org amongst others are teachers of great responsbility and outreach.
they are not teaching us anything that is NOT out of the holy tanach, like xtianity who created a myth figure. and though i truly believe israel is the chosen nation and the people most beloved to Hashem, i also believe we of the 70 nations are in HIs Plan. you can always write to rabbis who are involved in reaching out to noahides like Rabbi lazer of lazer beams, RGinsburg of inner.org and others. please dont give a blanket bordlerless view without actually taking all views including the holy sages understanding.
G-d sent moses, aaron, the prophets, all these were men. we believe G-d sent them and they were inspired by Him. and today, so are our sages and teachers. G-d did not teach to every single israelite the laws, but to moses and thro moses and hence forth downwards.
i am not following the teachings of man, i am following the explanations of the holy tanach by the rabbis who are qualified and blessed to teach G-d's Word, not their own word or writings.they are teaching at the level G-d has blessed them to understand and disseminate. blessings.

Shiloh said...

Annon, since you are not part of our nation, like Crazysmade, your opinions are worthless and always will be. Like I told Crazysmade, follow the Torah to the best of your ability. You don't need a club to do that. If the so called sages disregard sections of the Torah for their own purposes, reject that too. It's you who will stand before haShem, and no, you won't have Brody standing next to you on that day.

crazy smade said...

Anon, give it up. Shiloh has ... "issues." If you keep pushing his button, then you're just going to make him show his true colors and say something that'll get everyone's comments deleted.

Shiloh said...

Oh, what's that smade? When the truth smacks you right in the face you don't like it now. You wonder why I mistrust goyim, especially those so called former missionary types who love to slander Jews both living and dead. Not to worry smade, you have been left out for a reason, the rabbi's too see it and won't convert you, as if it would make a differnce anyway. Deal with it.

Anonymous said...

No creation of Hashem is worthless. this is why some jews instead of being a light to all nations, have pushed some noahides back to idolatry, xtianity and other faiths by disillusioning them. i am not going to do that. neither am i going to be rude to any jew. i remember Jacob's words, to Hashem. bless those who bless israel .......

i dont think my words or my lessons with the rabbis are worthless. every teacher is answerable to his guidance. i know mine are.
i was taught that jacob returned alone (when he was leaving laban) to take some clay pots, as everything we have is given to us by Hashem and everything has a worth. definitely a gentile is worth much more than a clay port before Hashem's eyes. Had abraham thought gentiles were worthless so, he would not have had so many converted souls .
i would not Please G-d, show any rudeness and bring discredit to th e years of spiritual guidance from my rabbis and the memories of the holy sages like Ramchal, Rambam, RNachman, Baalshemtov and others whose books i treat with reverence as they explain to us Hashem's laws and guidance.

i have a long time noahide friend in Irving, texas who is now permanently in a rehab center. he told me once he approached an orthodox jew about conversion and he spat at him. in no way did jim run down the jews because of that one unfortunate behaviour. all he told me was the sufferings and progroms the jews suffered in the hands of many of the 70 nations has built a deep distrust, and no one can blame them.
i respect rabbi Gutman's explanation. i asked the question, and i hope it helped many noahides who open this site. thanks for being honest about what you think of us gentiles. blessings.

Daniel said...

Shiloh's remarks and attitude are hurtful, rude, inconsiderate, and absolutely appalling! I call on the blog administrators to censure Shiloh for his vile and deplorable conduct on this blog!

Crazy Smade said...

FOR NOACHIDE EYES ONLY!!!

TO: Daniel and Anon,

I tried to warn everyone. Just drop it. Anything you post will just make matters worse. We've already been through this a number of times on this blog.

Noachides aren't allowed to teach or preach to Jews. Even when a Noachide quotes Rabbinic sources to a Jew ... they're still in the wrong, because it's not the place of a non-Jew to correct or instruct a Jew. And you can forget about trying to defend yourself.

If that's too hard of a pill for Noachides to swallow, then put it in the context of an occidental marriage - the husband (Noachide) is always wrong and the wife (Jew) is always right. If you want peace in the home, then just nod your head up and down and say, "You're right, dear. That's absolutely correct. Thanks!" If you can't handle that, then you might just as well divorce yourself from all contact with Klal Yisrael.

The opinions of non-Jews even when based upon the teachings of Judaism are in fact worthless, because what non-Jews think or believe doesn't matter one way or the other to Jews.

So, Noachides might just as well get use to being treated like red-headed step-children and/or second class citizens, because the pro-Noachide Jews, who will actually embrace Repentant Strangers with genuine "ahavas brious," are in the minority.

(Read pp. 185-186 in Rabbi Locks book entitled, "Coming Back to Earth: The Central Park Guru Becomes An Old City Jew").

Given the historical record, we should be thankful that there isn't more anti-Gentilism amongst the Jews. Can you blame them?

Anonymous said...

blessings. i am sorry you feel this way crazy smade. noahides dont give their thoughts or try to teach jews. only what the rabbis taught me was quoted here. Not my views. and not to teach any jew but perhaps more to emphasise our sincerity in leaving idolatry and returning to Hashem and the 7 laws.
as an indian i detested the caste system.
if G-d wanted such a wide chasm between the 70 nations and His first born, our blood composition and organs too should be different. yet, gentile blood has been used to save jewish lives and vice versa as well as in organs.
who was zipporah, moses wife and who was ruth?
i have wonderful images of the jewish people over the years in my net interaction. its not going to change.
my two sons and i carry the rebbe's photo.
when my second son had a free trip to melbourne to teach maths for a week for the first time in his 32 years he entered a place of worship, a chabad syngagoue. when the rabbi asked who he was, he stated his country, showed his international passport and the rebbe's photo. the rabbi took out his kippa, placed it on my son's head and welcomed him in for prayers. it was purim.
and throughout the years all my rabbis and orthodox jewish friends have prayed for us during illness and sufferings. they have called me from US and other places.
these are the wonderful images i have of a nation G-d chose for Himself above all. a nation that 3 times a day prays for the world in the shemoneh esri and aleinu prayers.
lets rest this matter in peace now. one day Hashem will tell us whether he created us gentiles as second class citizens as practised in gentile countries or HE Who is only good, does love all His creations. Each creation for a purpose only He Knows and Understands.
i enjoy RGutman's writings and he too has prayed for my family in need . i dont want to be the cause of bickering among you all. hence i will not write any more comments but will just continue studying at the site. and write to RGutman in private. my humble apologies if i have hurt anyone.

crazy smade said...

FOR NOACHIDE EYES ONLY!!!

Anon writes, "i am sorry you feel this way crazy smade."
---------------------

Well, it's not a matter of feeling. It's what I've been told.

When Jews have a difference of opinion, it's not the place of a non-Jew to chime in and defend one Jew against the other and/or one Jewish school of thought against another.

If one Jew sounds like he's coming from the House of Shammai and another is coming from the House of Hillel, it's not the place of a non-Jew to argue for (or voice an opinion in favor of) the House of Hillel over against the House of Shammai, regardless of how wrong or venomous and hate-filled the Shammaite Jew gets or seems to be.

As I've been told repeatedly, it's none of our business. If we decide to make it our business, then we'd better walk two steps behind the Jew we're siding with and we'd better keep silent whilst Jews wrangle amongst themselves.

That said, we Noachides can talk and/or debate all we want, but only with each other or in the presence of a Jew that's given us permission to speak freely.

As for Rabbi Gutman Locks, he's a priceless gem in the crown of Judaism, IMO. If others were like him then HaMelech HaMashiach would already have been revealed, IMO.

Aside from certain individuals on the Internet - largely Messianics, Karaites, Reform, Secular and assorted anti-Rabbinic Jews and certain posers - my contact with Jews and Judaism has been very positive and enriching.

My warning to you about not pushing Shiloh's button was just that - a friendly warning. We've been there and done that one too many times on this blog. I doubt that the other Jews on this blog will mind you posting about your ahavas yisrael here. Be well.... Peace....

Anonymous said...

Shalom,
What's the point of this whole mishmash with "the historical Jew from 2000 years ago"??
I thought this was an Orthodox Jewish site???
Perhaps the blog admin should clean things up here??
R. Halevy

Tali said...

Dear Anonymous Noachide,

I'm charedi and have been living in a totally charedi community in Israel for years. Kudos to you for discovering and upholding Noachide values in this crazy and corrupt world. I really appreciate Noachides and so do many other Jews I know. Your decency and morality benefit the world. May people like you increase.

And may Hashem continue to bless you and guide you.

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