Tuesday, August 19, 2008

// // 6 comments

Gog Links

Yeranen Yaakov has a series of current Gog uMagog links, worth checking out.

Dreaming of Moshiach has an excellent post on knowing the time of the geulah. A top notch Torah analysis.

Josh at Parsha Blog reviews the often cited Gemora Sanhedrin (97a) on the time of the Geulah.

6 comments:

joshwaxman said...

That Torah analysis at Dreaming Of Moshiach, as a guest post by Reb Aryeh, ends:

"This is also why the gemara gives us three separate events in three separate years.
Sixth year - קולות - rumors of Moshiach
Seventh year - מלחמות - wars
Eighth year - בן דוד בא - Moshiach comes"

But this is incorrect. See my post here for elaboration:

http://parsha.blogspot.com/2008/08/voices-in-sixth-war-in-seventh-ben.html

Specifically -- and read there for elaboration -- that is a quote out of context, and the brayta being cited IN FULL actually gives EIGHT separate events in EIGHT separate years, not THREE. And in the gemara there, Abaye notes that they must come in order.

To cite myself:
"in the third, a great famine, in the course of which men, women, and children, pious men and saints will die, and the Torah will be forgotten by its students." This would be the year 5764, or ~2004 CE. What was this great famine in that year affecting the Jews and causing the Jews all this death from famine? And what Torah was forgotten by its students during this year? And why did I not hear of it?

If you cannot give explanation of this, as well as for all the other troubles, then Abaye is saying that this is not the shemitta year in question.


Kol Tuv,
Josh

Anonymous said...

http://www.debka.co.il/article.php?aid=1603

Here's a link of interest. Pass it on to Dreamingofmoshiach.

joshwaxman said...

thanks for the link!

the other thing that occurred to me (and which I will note here since commenting is not available there) about that Yalkut Shimoni Reb Aryeh cites is that it is begins שנו רבותינו as if it were citing an earlier Rabbinic source. And surely Chazal were hoping for mashiach even when the Mikdash was around (indeed, even Yushke was a false messiah during the days of the Mikdash).

So how do we know that what was envisioned here was the rebuilt *Third* Temple rather than the standing second Temple.

And even if it is talking about the rebuilt third Temple, the context seems to be that mashiach did not yet come, but is coming now. So the question

"I don't know about you, but if I was standing there I would have to be nuts not to believe! Moshiach himself is standing on the Beis Hamikdash announcing the geulah!"

is perhaps not such a question. after all we know, this may just be some random lunatic screaming on top of the Beis HaMikdash, rather than Mashiach himself.

Ari Goldwag said...

In response to your first comment. I made no claim that we are in any of those three years. I was just explaining that the year of קולות by definition can not be the year of Moshiach's arrival, because if we are hearing rumors, he can not come. That was the point I was trying to make. But your point is strong, and I have thought about it many times. As far as your second point, it is a great answer. It didn't cross my mind, because each person thinks from his own vantage point, and right now לצערינו we have no Beis Hamikdash.

joshwaxman said...

thanks for the clarification. Now that I look back at the post, I see that that was what you were doing.

Kol Tuv,
Josh

Ben-Yehudah said...

B"H

Here's one from Tomer Devorah...

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